Nov 15 Classic was great, BC was better. IMO, BC hit the sweet spot in terms of content and gaming for WoW. It basically kept the core gameplay of Classic, but streamlined it for a better experience. Questing wasn't much different (still needed groups for hard quests), dungeons were still challenging (no LFD, heroics could be very difficult), and the raids were plentiful and required less people (25 and 10) Classes were much more balanced, specs were vastly improved (druids and paladins could finally tank and DPS as good as they could heal) In PVP, arenas are one thing I don't know if they should have ever added TBH. Some people might complain about the introduction of flying mounts, but I think it fit the expansion well. Also, Shattrath City was a great city hub! I enjoyed spending time there. Overall, I think it was the best WoW has ever been.Rhamus13 Nov 15
To gain gold in World of Warcraft, you will primarily be grinding professions which are fantastic for receiving rewards. Mining is an example of a great profession at an early-game level. While Herbalism is actually the best gathering profession, the issue is it uses consumables which can make the profession rather costly, with the investment required.
To fully understand the interplay, consider terrain. This includes the placement of hills and valleys, trees, buildings, and more. When hooking up the old terrain data files to the new modern game system we realized that the way the system looked at the shape of data was different. This resulted in the updated system and classic data not aligning, resulting in weird issues like Kolkar campfires underwater or burnt-out trees from the Cataclysm era appearing in the original world.
A demo of the game was available at BlizzCon 2018, and was downloadable on home computers for anyone who purchased a BlizzCon ticket or virtual ticket. The servers became available when Opening Ceremony started at BlizzCon 2018 and was set to end on November 8, but was extended until November 12.[4] Players started at level 15, and the only available zones were Westfall and the Barrens.[5] It was based on patch 1.13.0, essentially patch 1.12.0 ported to a modern infrastructure. The first day of the demo, there was a playtime limit of a cumulative 60 minutes with a cooldown of 90 minutes, applied through the BlizzCon Exhaustion debuff.[6] The debuff was removed on the second day of BlizzCon 2018.[7]
If you like playing solo – there’s no better option than the Hunter.  Hunter is considered the most efficient solo-leveling class so you’ll ding level 60 in no time. As a Hunter, you will be able to tame various beasts across the world and use them as your pets. Pets help you tank groups of mobs and enable you to tackle some of the group quests alone. However, their PvE power falls off in the end-game, but their PvP potential is enormous. Skilled Hunters are a pain to deal with since it’s almost impossible to catch a masterful hunter.
The simple truth behind all of this bickering and squabbling is that there really isn't a bad way to enjoy a game. You like the feeling of Classic taking you back to your young(er) days and that rush of falling in love with WoW for the first time? You like the slower pace of both combat and leveling? You like that the social aspects of the game take a front seat? Good, enjoy it! You prefer moder WoW and BfA with it's tons of improvements, smoother design and more player-friendly features? Great, enjoy it! It doesn't matter whether you prefer modern WoW or Classic or WotLK or whichever your personal high-point was (it was Burning Crusade and Legion for me), you're not wrong. You literally can't be. No matter what anyone says in all these heated discussions, they care about WoW, in whatever form they prefer it. So why can't this be enough of a commonality for us to have a civil discourse?
Players who want to buy WoW Classic Gold, please create order, fill in correct character information and complete the payment. We will complete the delivery within the promised time, Then you confirm the delivery. If you do not receive the goods, or the delivery quantity is insufficient, please do not confirm the delivery. If you have any questions, please communicate with us in time.

This is the most advanced tip that will only suit the smart players – those willing to spend some time in the auction house. In order to start with the speculations, you’ll need some initial funds and some basic knowledge about the prices on your server, so this tip might not be suitable for many. Back in the day, in order to sell stuff quickly, people used to sell various stuff cheaper than the average price standard on the market and your job is to find those deals and quickly buy them out before anyone else does. This is where the real gold making comes from!
Nov 15 We ordered vanilla not vanilla with sprinkles 1. Sharding/Phasing was not a part of the classic experience. The launch surge and often times overwhleming population fighting over quest mobs and loot was impactful on a human level which brought people together to make parties so they weren't fighting or made people bitter rivals. And that ten minutes you spent competing with people to loot that bucket before it despawned for another few minutes was intense. 2. Loot trading was not a part of the classic experience. Ninja looting was a real thing, a crime you could commit which united the community up in arms against you, blacklisting you. That's a feature for modern WoW, not genuine classic. This is a recreation. Not a remaster. Not reforged. We ordered vanilla, not vanilla with sprinkles on it with modern hand holding baby coddling streamlined bogus. That's more suited to your modern WoW playerbase, not the millions waiting patiently for the game they knew and loved over a decade ago. I don't want to sound like an entitled brat, but when you advertise a product, don't change it behind the scenes. Please Blizzard, don't add these things. They kill aspects of what made classic wow such a special phenomenon that rallied people to make private servers in its honor. I'll go play one if this isn't authentic, because those unofficial servers would be more authentic.Rhystael95	Nov 15 

PHASED CONTENT ROLLOUT – Following its launch, World of Warcraft Classic’s content will be released over the course of multiple phases reflecting the game’s original order. Re-experience WoW history unfolding as heroes gear up for Blackwing Lair; players battle for PvP Honor and Rank rewards; and entire realms band together to open the gates of Ahn’Qiraj.
To fully understand the interplay, consider terrain. This includes the placement of hills and valleys, trees, buildings, and more. When hooking up the old terrain data files to the new modern game system we realized that the way the system looked at the shape of data was different. This resulted in the updated system and classic data not aligning, resulting in weird issues like Kolkar campfires underwater or burnt-out trees from the Cataclysm era appearing in the original world.
I hate to be the one to say this, but let’s face it: we’re not little kids any more. Even for those of us who played Vanilla when they were well into their adult years will have gotten 14 years older, 14 years wiser, and up to 14 years more experienced with video games. What does that mean for Classic WoW? Well for starters, the grand majority of people who are interested in Classic will now have full time jobs. Some might have families and kids they didn’t have before. Basically, WoW Classic won’t be a big of a chunk in people’s lives as it was back then. Considering how much time you will really need to put into Classic WoW to enjoy everything it has to offer, that might be an issue. Stringing together 40-odd people to storm Blackwing Lair might be significantly more difficult now than it was back then. However, due to the issues I talked about in the paragraph above, it might not need to be the long, arduous hours that many people put into Vanilla raiding. With the right preparation and knowledge, raids in Classic will most likely take considerably less time to complete than they did in Vanilla, which will hopefully counteract the fact that the majority of players will have less overall time and fewer long chunks of time to play. 6. Conclusion In essence, the game itself might not be changing from Vanilla to Classic WoW, but the knowledge and mindset of the players of the game will considerably change the way the game feels. Everyone probably figures that there won’t be that same sense of wonder that Vanilla WoW brought so long ago, and that’s true. Nostalgia can only carry Classic WoW so far. Thankfully, I believe that there is some truly solid game design inVanilla WoW, and the fact that Blizzard have doubled down on creating a verbatim experience for Classic WoW is something that people have been adamant about since the day they announced its release. Only time will tell if ClassicWoW truly is the thing people have been wanting, or whether the new CEO ofBlizzard Jay Allen Brack was right – we thought we wanted it, but we didn’t.
Your WoW Classic Gold will usually be delivered to you within 10 minutes to 24 hours. There are usually several ways to delivery game goods: Face to Face Delivery, In-game Mailbox delivery, Game Auction House delivery. If the seller does not delivery within the promised time, please communicate with the seller in time, or contact our online customer service. Note that Do Not Trust Anyone Who Wants Trade You After You Get WoW Classic Gold. 

Other methods have been discussed. For example, mods could be crippled. DBM didn't exist back then, and the other boss that did that I don't remember the name of, didn't do as much back then as DBM does now. If our goal is to recreate the experience as it was, then obviously not having DBM would be a reasonable way to accomplish that. DBM simply existing, makes the game today easier than it was. So disallow it. Again, this is completely consistent with the spirit of vanilla. Remember one-button-decursing? That was nerfed. They crippled the capabilities of the modding API to disallow that because it made the game too easy. So what if they cripple it a little bit more to once again make the game less easy? 

1. Vue d'ensemble de la classe Voleur 2. La meilleure race pour Voleur 3. Astuces leveling pour le Voleur 4. Les poison du Voleur 5. Addons pour Voleur 6. La meilleure spé pour le leveling 7. La spé alternative : « Frontstabbing » 8. Rotation optimisée pour le leveling 9. Stats conseillées pour le leveling 10. Liste des meilleures épées 11. Liste des meilleures dagues
The folks over at Blizzard made a lot of dreams come true last summer when they formally announced World of Warcraft Classic during the Blizzcon 2018 keynote. The world’s most popular MMO has been chugging along for fifteen years now, receiving various upgrades and expansions. While the game is inarguably as good as it ever was, longtime players had been yearning for a return to the early days of the game and Blizzard seemingly agreed with that sentiment.
Beginning May 15, select WoW players will be invited to participate in a small-scale, focused closed beta test. Players will also get a chance to help put our servers and technology through their paces in a series of stress tests running from May through July—you can opt in now through Account Management and select the WoW Classic beta. Subsequent stress tests will extend the opportunity to even more players. Level caps will also be in place to ensure we’re emphasizing the “stress” in “stress test.

This is something that people really need to start to understand, not just for Classic or WoW but software developement in general. Fixing a bug isn't just flipping a switch or changing a single digit. You have a machine with literally hundreds of thousands of parts, designed by dozens of different people at different times over the course of 20 and more years. You change a single thing and it might break 50 other things in very subtle ways that might not even emerge until months later (i.e. the very high M+ keys some players got at the start of BfA).


The Horde levels 50-60 guide has been rewritten and revamped.  My 1-60 Horde leveling guide is now completely updated for the 1.12 Drums of War patch.  As you can see it is about 15% larger than the 40-50 guide (single largest guide page yet).  There is also a lot of route changes.  I moved the entire Silithus section from level 55 to level 58, which allowed me to include a lot more quests for that zone.  There is also a lot of other improvement to the route, including adding a lot more quests into the guide, mostly from Moonglade, Silithus and Eastern Plaguelands.  This will make the final level 59 grind much shorter.
Other methods have been discussed. For example, mods could be crippled. DBM didn't exist back then, and the other boss that did that I don't remember the name of, didn't do as much back then as DBM does now. If our goal is to recreate the experience as it was, then obviously not having DBM would be a reasonable way to accomplish that. DBM simply existing, makes the game today easier than it was. So disallow it. Again, this is completely consistent with the spirit of vanilla. Remember one-button-decursing? That was nerfed. They crippled the capabilities of the modding API to disallow that because it made the game too easy. So what if they cripple it a little bit more to once again make the game less easy?
Players will start from level 1 and will progress through level 60 with real, Blizzlike x1 rates. Old PvP battlegrounds are: Warsong Gulch, Arathi Basin and the famous 40vs40 players Alterac Valley where battles were known to last more than 24 hours. 20 and 40 man raids will be available for Molten Core, Zul Gurub, Blackwing Lair, Ahn'Qiraj 20 & 40 and the original Naxxramas raid in the Eastern Plaguelands.
Another hurdle we had to overcome was how to store and merge our data. World of Warcraft has multiple updates or patches in development at any one time, each in a different stage of development. If an art asset or terrain file is added to one patch, the system is designed so that it also automatically shows up in later patches. This meant that If we had simply inserted a new patch for WoW Classic into the current development environment, we would have overwritten things like the current broken dam in Loch Modan with the previous intact version—and as you can imagine, this would have caused issues for Battle for Azeroth.
Nov 15 C2C interview with Theloras aka ME Hey everyone, Earlier today I spent some time with the Man, the Myth, the Legend who is Countdown to Classic and we spent some time discussing what I and many other Paladins are most looking forward to in the upcoming WoW Classic demo that will be available during Blizzcon: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/325334774 Since it looks like just Elwynn Forest for the Alliance and Durotar for the Horde will be available to play/test during the upcoming demo/beta, only early level gameplay will be possible to test at any length. But even with that limitation, a major core mechanic for Paladins will be able to be tested and theory crafted. I am of course referring to JUDGEMENT STACKING which I outlined in the thread below along with several other mechanics/talents/items that are still lingering and unanswered questions: Proc Items + Spell Dmg + JotC stacking? https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20760205815#post-1 TLDR - I found actual Vanilla era evidence (posted in the thread above) which stated that all ranks of each individual Judgement stacked with one another - Judgement of Light (JoL), Judgement of Wisdom (JoW) and most critically in this case, Judgement of the Crusader (JotC): With pvp gloves, libram and 3/3 imp JotC = +829 holy damage JotC R1 +79 Holy Damage JotC R2 +90 Holy Damage JotC R3 +113 Holy Damage JotC R4 +148 Holy Damage JotC R5 +182 Holy Damage JotC R6 +217 Holy Damage Since rank 1 Seal/Judgement of the Crusader is learned at level 6 and rank 2 is learned at level 12, if Elwynn Forest ends up being the only zone open for testing, then reaching level 12 is definitely doable from quest turnins and XP from mob kills. Which will allow 2 Paladins to join as a group and coordinate each of them putting up rank 1 and rank 2 of Judgement of the Crusader accordingly. If this proves to be correct, then it would forever change the LOLRET Meta with the simple fact that the more Retribution Paladins you have in a group/raid, the more powerful each of them then become and would also allow other class/specs come to the forefront as well namely Discipline Priests spamming Smite. At any rate, the twitch interview link is above - we had some audio technical issues at the start so if you fast forward to the 5:00 mark - you can hear the full interview. PS as a bonus, later on in the interview the Crazy OOMkin named Keftenk makes a special guest appearance :) https://twitter.com/count2classicTheloras111 Nov 15
Some quests in my guide are marked as "SKIP" and colored in red.  These quests are simply either too hard to solo or not worth the XP/time and are skipped.  My guide will only list SKIPPED quests if the quest is a direct follow up after completing a quest, not one that you have to click the NPC again to get it.  If you hover over the skipped quests, it will give info on why it is skipped in the guide (unless that info is already listed directly in the guide text).
In OSRS, before bonds (their equivalent of tokens) were released, there was a strong gold industry, but most people who bought gold did so by buying bonds on the main game, then finding a dedicated 'swapper' who'd exchange their RS3 gold for an appropriate amount of OSRS gold (taking a cut for themselves, of course). I wonder if a similar system will pop up in classic wow

Blizzard won’t just be picking names out of a hat to decide who gets to participate in the World of Warcraft Classic beta. In order to have a good chance at being considered, you’ll need to show that you’re a dedicated player. According to the games website, you’ll need to have an active subscription or active game time on our Battle.net account to be considered for the testing period.
Nov 15 Little Test on Class Quest Rewards Hey guys, I did a little test on certain class rewards to check whether they are adequate or not for the level they are obtainable. Paladin - Verigan's Fist is a famous weapon, added probably during the Naxx patch and lot of paladins remember lasting it for long time. Obtainable level is like 22, with party of same level players. And the Mace is equivalent to a level 26 Blue Mace. This means it's not bad! Warrior - Brutal Hauberk is infamous warrior chest. It is obtainable at level 20(as I remember), but it requires running a level 28+ dungeon. And it's mediocre - it compares to a level 24 blue, which is stupid. Whirlwind Axe is a famous warrior weapon which requires a nanny. :D You get level 30 and then pay people money or beg them to help you. This is not even doable with normal party until 35ish. Whirlwind Axe is equivalent to a 35 level Blue Axe, which is decent but still seems to be forcing it. Unless you hire a nanny, being social will probably help you get it at around 35-36 with similar level players. Warlock - Enchanted Gold Bloodrobe is pretty famous. I am not sure when it is exactly doable but is comparable to a level 35ish Robe. I think the verdict is that Paladin's Hammer is by far the best and the reason for it is that it was added later, at the end of vanilla, when Blizzard had more brains. :DHolylr1 Nov 15
Your WoW Classic Gold will usually be delivered to you within 10 minutes to 24 hours. There are usually several ways to delivery game goods: Face to Face Delivery, In-game Mailbox delivery, Game Auction House delivery. If the seller does not delivery within the promised time, please communicate with the seller in time, or contact our online customer service. Note that Do Not Trust Anyone Who Wants Trade You After You Get WoW Classic Gold.
But how do you proportionally resize the swing? Even if you did, it wouldn’t give you the same type of joy as when you were a kid, because you have grown up and changed. Even if that wasn’t the case for you, you have to consider that the swing has become a place that is sacred for many other adults. When they visit, they aren’t visiting to try out the new adult-swing. They want to try the old swing. The one that brings back the joyful memories of distant past. They know that the experience isn’t the same, but if they close their eyes ... even for a brief moment ... they just might get that nostalgic thrill that brings them back to a time where things seemed so much simpler.

As you level, you will buy new ranks of spells. If you splurge out on an item upgrade, you will not have enough gold readily available to upgrade to the latest ranks of spells: placing you behind. Moreover, you can buy gear upgrades from the Auction House (AH) or vendors. Furthermore, you may have large investments that need to be paid for professors. You will need to purchase reagents and items such as leather, bolts of cloth, alchemy supplies – unless you have a charitable friend or another high-level alt.
I joined twitch in 2013 with the gamer name of FuriousPaul and I streamed speedruns of the classic Castlevania games from 2013 - 2017. Lately my streams have died down quite a bit due to working on Classic WoW leveling guides every day.  Although I may come on occasionally and play a random game for fun on my Twitch stream.  I talk a lot about WoW speedrunning on my channel, so feel free to follow and hang out to discuss vanilla WoW if you like.  Classic WoW will be my main focus for a long time.  Unfortunately I will have to wait until Classic WoW comes out before I start streaming it.
But how do you proportionally resize the swing? Even if you did, it wouldn’t give you the same type of joy as when you were a kid, because you have grown up and changed. Even if that wasn’t the case for you, you have to consider that the swing has become a place that is sacred for many other adults. When they visit, they aren’t visiting to try out the new adult-swing. They want to try the old swing. The one that brings back the joyful memories of distant past. They know that the experience isn’t the same, but if they close their eyes ... even for a brief moment ... they just might get that nostalgic thrill that brings them back to a time where things seemed so much simpler.
Nov 15 I pay $12 for FFXIV. Why pay $15 for Classic? I copied this from a reply I made with slight edits, but I feel this should be brought up in a post. I'm mostly a FFXIV player nowadays. I used to play classic a lot and have only played modern WoW on and off because friends kept bugging me to come back... and then we would all quit a month or so in. I currently pay $12 for FFXIV because they have an option to pay 12 for having only 1 character per server. Paying $15 dollars for an old game that was already released is just too much. I don't like modern WoW at all. I don't like the changes they are making to 'their classic'. If I have to pay $15 dollars for a game I won't play and a modern Blizzard's take on classic WoW, then I'm not going to pay anything and go on private servers. I don't like private servers either because the people running it are often corrupt and you never know when the servers will be shut down, but I am also not willing to shell out $15 for something that isn't worth it. If I can pay $12 to play FFXIV which is a modern mmo that receives constant updates, I shouldn't have to pay $15 to play an old MMO that's already been released and is getting unnecessary changes.Destroynme111 Nov 15
The original animations have also been restored, but WoW’s animation system is tightly coupled with its gameplay code. We had to make changes to both data and code to get the animations back to the 1.12 look. We ran into a few bugs along the way, such as models that should appear prone instead appearing upright, but we were able to correct these with a few fixes.
To avoid this, the team “taught” our tools some new tricks so that we could update WoW Classic without affecting the current version of the game. We copied the 1.12 data into a new project, taught the tools to distinguish between them, and now as the WoW Classic team makes patches, any changes stay within the Classic chain without ever interacting with the current game’s data. This might seem simple—like copying a directory—but the tricky part is teaching all our tools how to understand this so that they can make edits automatically. Being able to use our internal tools is a huge benefit, and we wanted to make sure Classic had access to all of WoW’s infrastructure and data.
Nov 15 Little Test on Class Quest Rewards Hey guys, I did a little test on certain class rewards to check whether they are adequate or not for the level they are obtainable. Paladin - Verigan's Fist is a famous weapon, added probably during the Naxx patch and lot of paladins remember lasting it for long time. Obtainable level is like 22, with party of same level players. And the Mace is equivalent to a level 26 Blue Mace. This means it's not bad! Warrior - Brutal Hauberk is infamous warrior chest. It is obtainable at level 20(as I remember), but it requires running a level 28+ dungeon. And it's mediocre - it compares to a level 24 blue, which is stupid. Whirlwind Axe is a famous warrior weapon which requires a nanny. :D You get level 30 and then pay people money or beg them to help you. This is not even doable with normal party until 35ish. Whirlwind Axe is equivalent to a 35 level Blue Axe, which is decent but still seems to be forcing it. Unless you hire a nanny, being social will probably help you get it at around 35-36 with similar level players. Warlock - Enchanted Gold Bloodrobe is pretty famous. I am not sure when it is exactly doable but is comparable to a level 35ish Robe. I think the verdict is that Paladin's Hammer is by far the best and the reason for it is that it was added later, at the end of vanilla, when Blizzard had more brains. :DHolylr1	Nov 15 

Before we talk about layering, it's important to talk about the sharding technology used in modern-day World of Warcraft. When a zone in the game becomes overpopulated, players will be seamlessly moved onto a different shard, which is essentially another instance of the same zone. It is important to note that you will still be able to play with your friends, because you are moved to the same shard when you create a party.
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In OSRS, before bonds (their equivalent of tokens) were released, there was a strong gold industry, but most people who bought gold did so by buying bonds on the main game, then finding a dedicated 'swapper' who'd exchange their RS3 gold for an appropriate amount of OSRS gold (taking a cut for themselves, of course). I wonder if a similar system will pop up in classic wow


I’m used to either wanting to play a game or not wanting to play a game. But WoW Classic… WoW Classic is different. Maybe I’m just falling victim to nostalgia. Maybe I’m conflating the people I played with in 2004-2006 with the game I played in 2004-2006. Nostalgia is a hugely powerful motivator, after all, and even us jaded reporters are susceptible to it. I’m not sure how I’m going to feel about stepping back into a game that was genuinely slower, jankier, and less well-balanced than the WoW that exists today. I do know I’m looking forward to it more than any other launch I expect this year. Some friends of mine have already started planning for a return. I’m going to join them. It’s annoying to find myself pulled back to a game version I genuinely don’t think is as good, in many ways, as what exists today — and yet, here I am.
I've been playing the Classic beta a little (and I do mean a little, the new Diablo season has me in its grips hard) and I can't see what the big fuss is about. It's Vanilla. That's what it is, that's what it was, that's what was expected and that's what we're getting. Sure there are bugs, upgrades some people didn't want and upgrades other people did want but didn't get, but in the greater scheme of things that's such a small part of the whole, it's barely worth talking about. So why are some people so insanely intent on ruining others' fun?
In terms of what the World of Warcraft Classic Best Classes are, Warrior and Priest stand out almost instantly. This is partly due to the fact that Protection Warrior is the only viable Tank Class in WoW Vanilla Patch 1.12. Both the Proc Warrior and Priest are required for Raids and when combined in a PVP setting can be a fierce combo on the battlegrounds.
The most important thing you should note is that there are no official beta keys. Blizzard opens the gates to their betas by granting access to your account — not sending you a beta key. If you’re in the beta, you’ll be able to download and play the WoW Classic client from your Battle.net launcher. If not, you aren’t in the beta. It’s easy to be tricked into thinking you’ll get a beta key from an email that looks like it’s from an official Blizzard address, but don’t believe their lies — they’re all fake.
The original WoW was painful. Mobs took forever to die; one additional enemy in a fight was a pain, two probably meant death. There was a ton of running. Most buffs lasted two minutes, many took reagents, abilities were trained and often out of reach if you lacked the necessary gold. Warlocks had to farm shards, hunters had to carry ammo -- even my warrior did, since in vanilla WoW she can carry a bow and fire arrows herself.
Nov 15 My only complain about Classic... ...Horde doesn't have any nice looking races. In my mind each class has best RPG based race for it. So, I like Gnomes because I feel them Mages. Night Elves - Hunters. Humans - Paladins. On Horde side: Undead - ugly. Trolls - ugly. Orcs... uhh fine as Warriors, but I don't play warriors. Tauren - Warriors or Shaman, again don't play those. Blood Elves! Give me Blood Elves!Vlasta36 Nov 15
It was the experience of the game that brought pleasure and joy, and that's what a lot of us want again. Not the numbers. When I play Classic I want to go through the deadmines with people I like and overcome a challenge together and see myself become stronger as a result. I don't want to play Classic so I can say "booyah! That number is exactly the same as it was 13 years ago!"
Making "new" guides seems kinda out of place. Not only is there still alot of information from back then available, there came alot of information up for minmaxing available for both leveling and raiding, ontop of various bis gear lists that cover patch progression aswell if necessary. Wether people like or dislike pservers does not make the various information found on their forums less valuable.
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