To fill our pool of beta and stress test participants, we’ll be choosing dedicated players who meet select criteria from both the WoW Classic beta opt-in and the standard Warcraft beta opt-in. Participants will also need to have an active subscription or active game time on their Battle.net Account. While opting-in to the beta is the primary way to make sure you’re in the running to join the test it doesn’t guarantee an invitation to the closed beta test. We may also consider additional factors such as how long a player has been subscribed to the game so that we have the right mix of players to ensure great feedback toward making WoW Classic the very best experience for the community. 

Nov 15 We ordered vanilla not vanilla with sprinkles 1. Sharding/Phasing was not a part of the classic experience. The launch surge and often times overwhleming population fighting over quest mobs and loot was impactful on a human level which brought people together to make parties so they weren't fighting or made people bitter rivals. And that ten minutes you spent competing with people to loot that bucket before it despawned for another few minutes was intense. 2. Loot trading was not a part of the classic experience. Ninja looting was a real thing, a crime you could commit which united the community up in arms against you, blacklisting you. That's a feature for modern WoW, not genuine classic. This is a recreation. Not a remaster. Not reforged. We ordered vanilla, not vanilla with sprinkles on it with modern hand holding baby coddling streamlined bogus. That's more suited to your modern WoW playerbase, not the millions waiting patiently for the game they knew and loved over a decade ago. I don't want to sound like an entitled brat, but when you advertise a product, don't change it behind the scenes. Please Blizzard, don't add these things. They kill aspects of what made classic wow such a special phenomenon that rallied people to make private servers in its honor. I'll go play one if this isn't authentic, because those unofficial servers would be more authentic.Rhystael95 Nov 15
Earlier this week, Blizzard finally announced a release date for World of Warcraft Classic, a barebones re-release of World of Warcraft long before it was filled with countless expansions. WoW Classic promises a pure, vanilla experience, one that a portion of the World of Warcraft playerbase has been chasing through unsanctioned vanilla servers stripped of various expansions. The game releases on August 27, which, while still a few months away, is still somewhat exciting, seeing as now most fans have an actual date to look forward to.
Druid is one of the most versatile classes across all of World of Warcraft Classic. By picking Druid you will have plenty of options to choose from while leveling. However, in the end-game, most groups will expect you to heal, though, Feral and Balance druids are also very desirable for their Innervate and Rebirth abilities. Additionally, various animal forms will make traversing the world into quite an uncomplicated task.
Instead of sharding the zones, their plan is to shard the entire continent at launch. In Classic WoW, there are no dynamic spawns and questing in starting zones would quickly become annoying, so it's understandable that the game is all but fun when there are no mobs to kill, but layering will also cause you to see new players, every time you sign in to the game, which is a clear downside of the tech. 
The quickest way to level up is to travel through the game's zones, completing all the quests you encounter along the way. Completing quests grants you Experience points, which will slowly fill in your experience bar with blue or purple. When the bar fills, you reach the next level. Alternatively, you could choose to run Dungeons or Battlegrounds, which are not covered in this beginner's guide.
You will need initial funds to start this way. Buy for cheap and sell for actual price or higher – that sounds pretty easy. But you should have basic knowledge of prices and always track the market. People use to sell for cheap when they need fast gold or don’t know real value of the item. So, it’s your chance to act. If you see anyone selling an item for low price in trade channel, contact them immediately. You should use all of your trade skills to negotiate about the price to make it as low as possible. It’s important ability to communicate. Besides, it’s good to get addons to trade effectively on Auction House: Aux or Auctioneer. They allow you to scan auction, compare prices, find cheapest options, post items quickly, and many other useful tools. It is possible to make your first thousand out of ten gold you have in a pocket.
Some players choose to take a slightly alternative approach to their gold farming. This approach can take an extensive amount of time and dedication. Many people choose to train a ton of alts, solely for the purpose of making money and multi-tasking. In World of Warcraft Classic, professions are usually paired together. For example, if you’re training alchemy, you will need herbs to create consumables (e.g. flasks) that are used for raiding. An intelligent and observant player could seize this knowledge by creating one alchemy alt and one herbalism alt, swapping items as needed between each other. This fully mitigates the fees by the Auction House, which means your profit is maximised. Another complimentary combination you can use is skinning and tailoring, or cooking and fishing.
For some weird reason Warlock used to be underrepresented in vanilla WoW. However, the least popular doesn’t mean that they were bad. Warlocks had amazing damage and some truly unique utility abilities allowing them to summon players or create Healthstones for the whole group. Similarly to Hunters, Warlocks were amazing for solo players with the ability to summon various demons to help them.

Nov 15 Loot sharing. Fools How stupid is the community about loot sharing? You know there is master loot right? Stop being dumb guys like holy crap. You also know that if you're the guy setting up a group or joining a group you have a option not to run or you can pick player's of different armor types... If you're a cloth wearer you just don't run or set up a group with other cloth wearers. Like this is something so simple and the community can't graps anything. I feel bad for blizzard sometimes with having to deal with brain power of this community. The community: "Oh, I didn't think about that. Derp, I'm an idiot."Plewtoe23 Nov 15
Wait, /sit to trigger crits is p-server thing? I distinctly remember people saying that if you sit, you will be crit when I played 1.12 Vanilla. On top of that - there’s that pally that one shot Kazzak in early Vanilla because he stacked a shitload of reckoning when it didn’t have a limit - it’s not inconceivable that he did it without /sit to trigger crits, but it would take him so, SO long to do that without /sit.

Nov 15 Guild Banks Pt. 14 So let's take our minds off subs and sharding and have a nice classic discussion about guild banks. Guild banks are still by far the least impactful on gameplay and most spirit of Vanilla community change one could request. Not only that the log keeps officers and gm's honest. Without logs they are free to skim off the top of donations and trivialize their epic mount purchase. Thoughts?Padrepwn91 Nov 15


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Sharding eliminates server load and realm stability. Cross-realm sharding is here so that players are evenly distributed across realms and helps combat underpopulation. Sharding at launch is vital to ensure a stable launch of an expansion. Starting zones would be filled with millions of people and that would turn even accepting a quest into a nightmare. Disadvantages of Sharding
Classic WoW is the highly anticipated, upcoming (re) release of the original, first World of Warcraft version, known as Classic and by it's other popular ice-cream like name: Vanilla WoW. Dubbed Retail Classic, or Official Classic by the playerbase - it was finally announced by Blizzard in November 2017, after a lot of pressure from the Private Server World of Warcraft community, since the latter's shutdown of the most popular Private Server called Nostalrius which featured the first WoW version in two separate PvP and PvE servers.
But how do you proportionally resize the swing? Even if you did, it wouldn’t give you the same type of joy as when you were a kid, because you have grown up and changed. Even if that wasn’t the case for you, you have to consider that the swing has become a place that is sacred for many other adults. When they visit, they aren’t visiting to try out the new adult-swing. They want to try the old swing. The one that brings back the joyful memories of distant past. They know that the experience isn’t the same, but if they close their eyes ... even for a brief moment ... they just might get that nostalgic thrill that brings them back to a time where things seemed so much simpler.
There is an Action Bar at bottom of the User interface. Each class starts with some skills. Every few levels, you will unlock new skills specific to your character class, these can be learned from your Class trainer. You will be introduced to one of these NPCs during one of the first few quests you complete in your starting zone, but they can also be found in many towns and each of your Faction's cities.
Step-by-step class guides are on the way!  The 1-12 Mulgore Guide is the first guide to get all the individual class steps.  At the top of the guide, simply select which class you are playing and the page will dynamically update all the steps in the guide for that class (both text and images).  The rest of the guides will be slowly updated overtime to include all the class steps, but you can see how it's going to work with the 1-12 Mulgore.  I want to thank crazyK and his Placeholderguild for helping me out with the individual class content.  They are allowing me to get the 1-60 Alliance guide done while also getting all the class steps done at the same time, so everything can be ready for Classic launch (hopefully).

I hate to be the one to say this, but let’s face it: we’re not little kids any more. Even for those of us who played Vanilla when they were well into their adult years will have gotten 14 years older, 14 years wiser, and up to 14 years more experienced with video games. What does that mean for Classic WoW? Well for starters, the grand majority of people who are interested in Classic will now have full time jobs. Some might have families and kids they didn’t have before. Basically, WoW Classic won’t be a big of a chunk in people’s lives as it was back then. Considering how much time you will really need to put into Classic WoW to enjoy everything it has to offer, that might be an issue. Stringing together 40-odd people to storm Blackwing Lair might be significantly more difficult now than it was back then. However, due to the issues I talked about in the paragraph above, it might not need to be the long, arduous hours that many people put into Vanilla raiding. With the right preparation and knowledge, raids in Classic will most likely take considerably less time to complete than they did in Vanilla, which will hopefully counteract the fact that the majority of players will have less overall time and fewer long chunks of time to play. 6. Conclusion In essence, the game itself might not be changing from Vanilla to Classic WoW, but the knowledge and mindset of the players of the game will considerably change the way the game feels. Everyone probably figures that there won’t be that same sense of wonder that Vanilla WoW brought so long ago, and that’s true. Nostalgia can only carry Classic WoW so far. Thankfully, I believe that there is some truly solid game design inVanilla WoW, and the fact that Blizzard have doubled down on creating a verbatim experience for Classic WoW is something that people have been adamant about since the day they announced its release. Only time will tell if ClassicWoW truly is the thing people have been wanting, or whether the new CEO ofBlizzard Jay Allen Brack was right – we thought we wanted it, but we didn’t.
I wanted to talk more about Classic here and my experience with it, especially relating to my Vanilla days, but somehow I kept writing about this rift that's forming in the WoW community. I can't seem to shake it, and for all the many, MANY times WoW was diagnosed as "dying" (and never did/never will), this one actually worries me. Some people have worried that Classic servers will split the community because BfA and Classic can't play together and few people will have the time to play both, but I'm worried it will REALLY split the community on a more philosophical level. At the moment WoW is back to being the most watched game on Twitch, beating out Fortnite and the rest, so shouldn't this be a happy moment for all of us that care about the game? Regardless of whether you enjoy BfA, or are holding on for the next expansion to fix things, or can't wait for Classic, can we at least TRY to keep things civil? We can disagree all day long, and I'm the first to put my opinions out there, but just don't accuse people of being... whatever it is you think they are. Argue facts, discuss calmly (or well, at least try to), and if you see the other person isn't doing the same, just politely stop talking to them. It's that simple.
Blizz stated in a watercooler that they're using the 1.12 database as a starting point. I don't think it's a stretch for people to assume that most game features and mechanics will be in their 1.12 state. The kind of stuff I would expect to see reverted would be numerous AV changes, but I seriously doubt class mechanics are going to be reverted. I'd be surprised if the threat changes that ruin pre-naxx encounters are reverted.
Nov 15 My only complain about Classic... ...Horde doesn't have any nice looking races. In my mind each class has best RPG based race for it. So, I like Gnomes because I feel them Mages. Night Elves - Hunters. Humans - Paladins. On Horde side: Undead - ugly. Trolls - ugly. Orcs... uhh fine as Warriors, but I don't play warriors. Tauren - Warriors or Shaman, again don't play those. Blood Elves! Give me Blood Elves!Vlasta36 Nov 15
Nov 15 I Don't Have Time To Reach Rank 11-14 I Don't Have Time To Reach Rank 11-14 and this is perfectly ACCEPTABLE! I actually like the fact that rank 11-14 is extremely hard to get and time consuming. I don't care if it's not about skill, it is very RPG feeling in the fact that, the people who put in the most time and effort spilling the most enemy blood are the ones who get the best rewards. as somebody who will NEVER have a chance of getting those ranks and items because; 1. I do not have time to do it 2. even if I did have time I still wouldn't do it because I mentally could not farm BG's that many hours for 3 months I support the PvP system and think it is great, and acquiring the hugely powerful items is a big reward and a status symbol. in Classic WoW the game is less about YOU and more about your guild. even if you are not the person to get rank 14, or a Legendary item it still feels awesome when your guild mates get them because it will make your guild stronger. LOVE IT!Agonyy107 Nov 15
The simple truth behind all of this bickering and squabbling is that there really isn't a bad way to enjoy a game. You like the feeling of Classic taking you back to your young(er) days and that rush of falling in love with WoW for the first time? You like the slower pace of both combat and leveling? You like that the social aspects of the game take a front seat? Good, enjoy it! You prefer moder WoW and BfA with it's tons of improvements, smoother design and more player-friendly features? Great, enjoy it! It doesn't matter whether you prefer modern WoW or Classic or WotLK or whichever your personal high-point was (it was Burning Crusade and Legion for me), you're not wrong. You literally can't be. No matter what anyone says in all these heated discussions, they care about WoW, in whatever form they prefer it. So why can't this be enough of a commonality for us to have a civil discourse?
Rogue combo points posed another challenge, because the game’s modern resource system knows how to gain and spend combo points, but not how to lose them when changing targets. There are also the older combat formulas to consider, so we had to bring back the code for the prior combat formulas including critical hits and crushing blows. Their chance to occur is also modified by the difference between the defender’s defense and the attacker’s weapon skill. Yes—weapon skill is back. We had the data for this aspect of the classic game, but we also needed to restore the code that increased your skills when you used them and made your skill level affect your chance to hit or get a glancing blow.

I received a beta invite for Classic, and had also been an alpha and beta tester for the original game 15 years ago. That isn't unique; plenty of people in Northshire Valley had had the same experience, suggesting to me that active players who were Day 1 WoW gamers or had participated in the original tests might have gotten priority invitations to this one.
Classic WoW is the highly anticipated, upcoming (re) release of the original, first World of Warcraft version, known as Classic and by it's other popular ice-cream like name: Vanilla WoW. Dubbed Retail Classic, or Official Classic by the playerbase - it was finally announced by Blizzard in November 2017, after a lot of pressure from the Private Server World of Warcraft community, since the latter's shutdown of the most popular Private Server called Nostalrius which featured the first WoW version in two separate PvP and PvE servers.

The leveling guides on my site are essentially speed leveling guides.  My leveling guides are the same guides I use myself to speedrun to 60 on new servers to get 60 server first.  I list many occasions where I tell the player to "die on purpose" to go faster.  I tell the player to skip certain quests, because some quests are just not worth the time/XP.  I list tricks and shortcuts to go faster so you can reach level 60 much quicker.  I am still constantly going through them over and over again perfecting the guides to make them faster and easier to follow.  For the most part, the guide can be followed without the need from other player's help, as the whole guide was made from a solo run anyways.  Although I do list quests that can optionally be done if you have a group.


CLOSED BETA TEST & STRESS TESTS – Starting May 15, select WoW players will be invited to participate in a small-scale, focused closed beta test, helping ensure WoW Classic nails its goal of authenticity. Players will also get a chance to help put our servers and technology through the paces in a series of stress tests from May through July—opt in now at www.wowclassic.com!
Nov 15 Spell Mechanic Questions and Hopes on Items I am not necessarily looking for any discourse that would lead to an answer, but hopefully this would gain enough traction that Blizzard might see it, and offer some insight to intended function come summer 2019. I know there is a current wall of text somewhere regarding questions on almost every item with a spell damage effect and whether or not they will be granted coefficients from character gear grand spell damage. I noticed one in particular that was left out and wanted to reiterate my personal favorites. Shard of the Fallen Star: Originally benefited in part or completely 1:1 ratio from spell damage and was capable of critting. It was nerfed in patch 2.0 which is after classic wow content. In the spirit of keeping things as they were, do you think Blizzard will keep this mechanic or change it to a post nerf state which although is not classic wow maybe seen as a balanced fix. Weapon List: Hand of Ragnaros, Netzerek the Blood Drinker, Corrupted Ashbringer, Shadowstrike - all received 2:1 coefficent originally in classic. I believe they were a little too strong but did not receive any nerf to my knowledge. Do you think these will remain as it was or be changed to satisfy the hopes for balance?Tunnelboy6 Nov 15
You can’t go wrong with a mage. In fact, Mage was the most popular class in World of Warcraft: Classic due to their ability to farm with ease. Back in the day, the player majority even leveled mages as alts in order to gather gold quickly. In addition to their monstrous ranged DPS, mages also have tons of useful utility. As a mage, you’ll be able to conjure food and water, place portals to the major cities, and even earn gold from doing so.

Beginning May 15, select WoW players will be invited to participate in a small-scale, focused closed beta test. Players will also get a chance to help put our servers and technology through their paces in a series of stress tests running from May through July—you can opt in now through Account Management and select the WoW Classic beta. Subsequent stress tests will extend the opportunity to even more players. Level caps will also be in place to ensure we’re emphasizing the “stress” in “stress test.


Nov 15 Skeletons RIP Please allow skeletons of dead players to Rest In Peace. Witnessing the aftermath of a city / town raid and seeing a blanket of bones that told a story of how the battle went down, really helped add to the MMORPG feel. I did not play the “demo” but reports say that skeletons disappear fairly quick. #nochangesMakinb17CEDC26 Nov 15

Frequently, we are getting many questions from our customers, especially after Blizzard’s announcement about World of Warcraft Classic at BlizzCon 2017, how to farm gold in Vanilla World of Warcraft, currently on Light’s Hope Lighbringer, Elysium Nighthaven and Twinstar Kronos-WoW realms. So, we are glad to share our experience and some knowledge with you. It might be not a discovery for someone but it is good to brush things up we all know and summarize them in one place. We are looking forward to publish more related articles to help and save your time. This guide may help you not in just Vanilla WoW but in any other expansion you are playing.

This option is better to use at level 40+. Higher level you are is better, more money you make then. All you do is farming dungeons or specific bosses. Here you kill a few birds with one stone: you get lots of experience (make sure you have all quests in your quest log, always ask your teammates to share) if you are still leveling; improve your current gear; and loads of loot (clothes, recipes, even crappy grey items selling for a lot to a vendor). If you are in a group, think about your groupmates if they need an item or not, don’t roll need on everything.
I am not, generally speaking, a conflicted or complicated gamer. I do not buy tons of titles. My Steam library is not stuffed with hundreds of games I’ve paid for but never played, apart from the ones I use for benchmarking. Hilariously, this means I have thousands of hours logged in a few games I’ve never actually started, but relatively few that I purchased for the purposes of playing and didn’t play.
For some weird reason Warlock used to be underrepresented in vanilla WoW. However, the least popular doesn’t mean that they were bad. Warlocks had amazing damage and some truly unique utility abilities allowing them to summon players or create Healthstones for the whole group. Similarly to Hunters, Warlocks were amazing for solo players with the ability to summon various demons to help them.
I hate to be the one to say this, but let’s face it: we’re not little kids any more. Even for those of us who played Vanilla when they were well into their adult years will have gotten 14 years older, 14 years wiser, and up to 14 years more experienced with video games. What does that mean for Classic WoW? Well for starters, the grand majority of people who are interested in Classic will now have full time jobs. Some might have families and kids they didn’t have before. Basically, WoW Classic won’t be a big of a chunk in people’s lives as it was back then. Considering how much time you will really need to put into Classic WoW to enjoy everything it has to offer, that might be an issue. Stringing together 40-odd people to storm Blackwing Lair might be significantly more difficult now than it was back then. However, due to the issues I talked about in the paragraph above, it might not need to be the long, arduous hours that many people put into Vanilla raiding. With the right preparation and knowledge, raids in Classic will most likely take considerably less time to complete than they did in Vanilla, which will hopefully counteract the fact that the majority of players will have less overall time and fewer long chunks of time to play. 6. Conclusion In essence, the game itself might not be changing from Vanilla to Classic WoW, but the knowledge and mindset of the players of the game will considerably change the way the game feels. Everyone probably figures that there won’t be that same sense of wonder that Vanilla WoW brought so long ago, and that’s true. Nostalgia can only carry Classic WoW so far. Thankfully, I believe that there is some truly solid game design inVanilla WoW, and the fact that Blizzard have doubled down on creating a verbatim experience for Classic WoW is something that people have been adamant about since the day they announced its release. Only time will tell if ClassicWoW truly is the thing people have been wanting, or whether the new CEO ofBlizzard Jay Allen Brack was right – we thought we wanted it, but we didn’t.
Before work began on World of Warcraft: Classic, it was only possible for players to experience the original World of Warcraft by using private servers, which are illegal, often have stability or corruption problems, and generally are very imperfect recreations of the authentic World of Warcraft experience. As much as Blizzard has been aware of the desires of their community, until recently it seemed impossible for them to emulate Classic servers due to the technical hurdles of essentially having to run two massively multiplayer online games side-by-side. A breakthrough was then achieved that made it possible to run Classic servers on the modern architecture of current World of Warcraft servers.
Nov 15 NO CHANGES. Change it, we won't play. NO server cap above 2500 NO further restrictions towards addon APIs NO sharding NO increased/decreased XP rate NO loot trading NO CRZ NO phasing NO connected realms NO dynamic respawn NO LFD/LFR NO new models NO dual talents NO wow token NO character boost NO shop NO transmog NO achievement NO heirlooms NO arena NO bfa character customization NO esports NO rated BG NO raid re-tuning NO class re-balancing NO personal loot NO flying NO mythic keystone dungeon NO multiple difficulties NO aoe-looting NO Death Knight NO Monk NO Demon Hunter NO blood elf NO draenei NO playable worgen/goblin NO allied races NO pandas No anti-cheat that blocks wall climbing (I want to see mount hyjal) YES to CRBG in the final patch. NO to any other cross realm technology These changes are unacceptable. Sorry I am speaking the truth. BTW. NO "NO CHANGES, BUT ..."Castradys254 Nov 15
The main topic for Classic at the moment would be whether the game is actually harder or just has more redundant activities you have to do before doing the stuff that's really fun. This is actually a good discussion to have, and not just for WoW, but gaming in general. The main sticking point for now, as most people are on (relatively) low levels is the breaks between killing mobs, especially for mana users. In the beginning it's actually refreshing having to think about what you can and can't pull, not just running into a bunch of mobs and killing them in *insert current optimal time to kill Blizzard determined is the most fun*. The food/drink breaks after a few (or even one) mobs provide time to actually look around the scenery and the mobs you're facing, and while there isn't much strategy involved at these levels, you still at least pretend to plan out how you're going to get to that quest mob without being killed by the 4 random ones surrounding them. Not being able to pull whatever mob you want, and actually having to check what mobs are there when you don't have interrupts yet (casters tend to be a nightmare) is definitely more difficult in a real way than what we have today. As a caster, having to actually think about which spells to use based on mana cost (and perhaps even using lower ranked ones) is definitely more difficult and requires more engagement with your character than we have in modern WoW.
Nov 15 [OCE] Alliance Late night PvE will be a hard core focused PvE raiding guild. GOALS To clear all content efficiently and quickly To have fun To be the best we can be To clear MC during week 2- RAID TIMES raid times will be held in GMT+9, this is Japan's time zone for reference, this does NOT follow day light savings. for reference, at this moment these times would be 11:30 in Sydney, and 7:30AM EST USA. MON 9:30PM-12:30AM WED 9:30PM-12:30AM THUR 9:30PM-12:30AM-may schedule a 4th day during progression if needed- 20 man raids will be help on off days, or raid days if all content has been cleared. again to be clear, this schedule will not follow DSL, so your start time may move 1 hour forward or backwards during the year. EXPECTATIONS I want my raiders to be willing. You do not have to be a former pro raider, you do not have to have vanilla experience. While these things are welcomed and I do share these qualities. All i need from you is the willingness to learn and become better. Give me your best and I'll give you quality leadership that has proven time and time again to down bosses and push through content. Effort will always be rewarded. LOOT RULES I will be using my own system style of loot council. It has worked well for me in the past and I will continue to use it. I can explain parts of it in detail on discord if you wish. ROSTER This is a brand new endeavor, I will be main tanking and I am looking for others to help me push this to a competent raid team. I look forward to making fresh connections and creating great bonds with all of you. ABOUT ME I have been playing warcraft since vanilla. I climbed higher and higher into better and better guilds until I eventually landed in a top 10 US guild during MoP. before WOD released I essentially stopped hardcore raiding and went more casual. I am now looking to get back into a more hardcore scene with like minded individuals who enjoy the prestige of completing content quickly. CONTACT BATTLENET Firefly#1855 DISCORD Hatchmark#2695 the discord has lots of links to video guides and other sources to help get you ready for classicHatchmark8 Nov 15
The simple truth behind all of this bickering and squabbling is that there really isn't a bad way to enjoy a game. You like the feeling of Classic taking you back to your young(er) days and that rush of falling in love with WoW for the first time? You like the slower pace of both combat and leveling? You like that the social aspects of the game take a front seat? Good, enjoy it! You prefer moder WoW and BfA with it's tons of improvements, smoother design and more player-friendly features? Great, enjoy it! It doesn't matter whether you prefer modern WoW or Classic or WotLK or whichever your personal high-point was (it was Burning Crusade and Legion for me), you're not wrong. You literally can't be. No matter what anyone says in all these heated discussions, they care about WoW, in whatever form they prefer it. So why can't this be enough of a commonality for us to have a civil discourse?
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